xquiq ([info]xquiq) wrote,
@ 2005-08-16 13:03:00
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Current mood: intrigued

Michael Buerk sounds off about women & society. I may have to watch this, although [info]alienspacebat might have to remove all the pointy / tv damaging objects from the house first.


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[info]galaxy_girl00
2005-08-16 12:58 pm UTC (link)
Aye, he sounds like he wants the sack if what he says is true!

I'd hate to be married to him...

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[info]xquiq
2005-08-16 01:14 pm UTC (link)
Reading the comments about multitasking, I'm tempted to say:

'Nyah! You're just jealous because we can multitask and you can't.'

;-)

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[info]spudtater
2005-08-16 02:16 pm UTC (link)
That man's got issues.

A lot of what he says is true, to some extent. As women (slowly) climb the career ladder, they have more buying power, which results in the world catering for them rather than their husbands. As they become the employers rather than the employees, they reshape the workplace to suit women rather than men, and job opportunities swing towards women. And as men realise that they can't attract women merely with the size of their wallet anymore, they are forced to change as well. He describes this as being more "female". I say it's more "boyish"; less responsible, more outgoing, more sexualised.

I think the real issue is that he is a dinosaur from a different era, who can't cope with today's world. The status quo has changed, and he's left in the lurch. So, naturally, he's throwing a hissy fit.   8^)

Yes, men have a harder time now than they did a few decades ago. And this trend will continue; as women seize more and more power, they'll make life harder for men. This is an obvious effect of feminism. But we're no way near the balance point yet, so, Mr. Buerk, please crawl back into your hole and shut up.

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[info]galaxy_girl00
2005-08-16 03:32 pm UTC (link)
POWER!!!!! YAY MORE PLEASE =0)

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[info]neuralbuddha
2005-08-16 05:08 pm UTC (link)
Hissy fits can be dangerous when you're a dinosaur!

Graar! Chomp! Stample!

:D

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[info]tonyjohnuk
2005-08-18 07:36 am UTC (link)
It's useful when someone with a bit of a profile prompts debate. We seem to be afraid of debate these days. People's views are what inform the way we behave. Berating rather than engaging on these topics is unlikely to make any progress. I get annoyed when people suggest that voicing extreme viewpoints in public should not be allowed. How on earth are we meant to challenge and change these viewpoints if they are only voiced between small groups of like minded individuals. Lets have real free speech, and get used to hearing viewpoints that are different from our own, and not jump to the conclusion that those voicing the viewpoints are in some way deficient, as they may represent a larger chuck of the population than we'd like to believe. Issues of tolerance and sexuality are rarely clear cut. As an old dude, I've worked my way through the majority of viewpoints on these subjects and the only conclusions I can draw are that there are no clear rights and wrongs, and even fewer things that we can get a real concensus on. And what people think is way more important than what people are prepared to say. Having people jump on those who express less liberal viewpoints is neither going to change those views, or encourage those individuals to engage in discussion.

Sorry, bit of a rant.

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[info]xquiq
2005-08-18 08:02 am UTC (link)
I actually agree with what you said, but it doesn't stop me swearing and ranting in the direction of the TV at some of what's said in such a debate. To be honest that's part of the fun of watching it.

After all, if I were really offended on any level (and I don't think I've got any cause to be), then I simply wouldn't watch it.

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[info]tonyjohnuk
2005-08-18 08:19 am UTC (link)
I wasn't directing this at you. Perhaps a bit at some of your other commenters. I just feel it's a trait of young people of a liberal persuasion to act as if their argument is won, they are right and all that say different are both wrong and dangerous. It's the differences in viewpoint that brings tension, and we need to accept that people do actually hold viewpoints that we may see as wrong and indefensible. It is just too easy to live life with like minded people and not put any effort into engaging with those with different viewpoints. A symptom of this is where people instantly berate a viewpoint, in a vehement manner, and effectively state that this is my viewpoint, and I will not be moved. In any real attempt to change someone else's viewpoint, the debater should be open to having their own viewpoint changed. By that I mean that they should be prepared to really listen to the other viewpoint, try and get inside the issue and understand it, and it's this openess that we are lacking.

I also wish I could multi-task!

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[info]xquiq
2005-08-18 11:04 am UTC (link)
I know what you mean about surrounding yourself with like-minded people, but in my experience the liberal trait you describe above isn't confined to the young.

I attended a meeting of the Electoral Reform Society, which was essentially a bunch of like-minded liberals - few of whom could be considered young, or even middle-aged - which was basically a talking shop around issues they all agreed on. They 'knew' they were right, weren't interested in engaging with the populace (too difficult, won't understand, waste of time) and just wanted to continue lobbying loudly and consistently until people realised they were right. They also held a curious disdain of the young, as being too idealistic and earnest.

It's odd, I feel (and bloody frustrating), that many liberal groups discuss freedom and rights as absolutes, whilst condemning right-wing or fundamentalist groups (be they religious, political, or single issue) for exactly that absolutist attitude.

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[info]tonyjohnuk
2005-08-18 12:35 pm UTC (link)
I guess its all just human nature at work. We are tribal and this clouds our perceptions. We are forced to interract with those outside our tribes and need to retreat occassionally to recharge ready for the next foray.

I feel myself getting irritated at the young and idealistic from time to time. I realise being young and idealistic is a route that you have to go through to reach the higher plain of "resignation that things are how they are" that I have achieved. So instead I wait to welcome you all when you complete your journey through the optimistic phase of your lives and emerge older and wiser and more cynical at the other end.

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[info]bondage_and_tea
2005-09-27 11:50 pm UTC (link)
"We seem to be afraid of debate these days. People's views are what inform the way we behave. Berating rather than engaging on these topics is unlikely to make any progress..."

Agree entirely with this. I've been jumped on a few times for daring to express a point of view which wasn't socially acceptable for the group of people I had chosen to have a pint with. (Long story involving dental dams - wasn't an entirely serious topic. :-)) It annoys me when people immediately take the "he/she is evil" stance, rather than first reasoning credulously and trying to empathise. Then, of course, counter arguments are good. People iterate beliefs. But just screaming and shouting indicates fear that one doesn't have a valid counter argument.

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[info]xquiq
2005-09-28 10:26 am UTC (link)
Oh I agree entirely. People should be allowed to state unpopular opinions, since without that option, the spectrum of opinion that can be voiced will only narrow, disenfranchising sections of the population who don't conform.

Admittedly I do tend to watch people giving opinions I disagree with on television whilst shouting logical argument against their position, but I'm probably a bit odd like that. It amuses [info]alienspacebat no end anyway!

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